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American Mafia Website - DiLeonardo Testimony 5

Note: The testimony of Michael DiLeonardo is presented here for its educational value on the subject of organized crime history only. Defendant John A. Gotti was not convicted of any wrongdoing in this trial or in two other federal racketeering trials. Mr. Gotti publicly acknowledged holding a leadership position in the Gambino Crime Family at one time but insisted that he left the organization long ago. This edited and formatted version of DiLeonardo's testimony is the property of The American Mafia website.

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Gambino Family Chronicles:

DiLeonardo Testimony - Page 5

United States of America v.
John A. Gotti, Jr., defendant

(04 CR 00690 SAS-1)

District Judge Shira A. Scheindlin

United States District Court,
Southern District of New York
New York, N.Y.,
February 22, 2006

Gambino Stock Scam

Q. You mentioned the stock market. What interest did you have on the stock market?

A. I had an individual around me named Sal Romano who was involved in the stock market. When he first started out, he brought in over several months about $25,000 or more, a little bit more, but $25,000 I gave to John.

Q. Just to be clear, what was Sal Romano doing with the stock market?

A. He had a pump-and-dump operation on the market.

Q. Did you put this on record with John Gotti, Jr.?

A. Yes.

Q. When you told him about Romano's operation, how did you describe it to him?

A. That it was a pump-and-dump operation.

Q. What do you mean by that?

A. Well, they would -- the calls would go out there to select the stock, pump it up to the potential buyers out there, tell them it was a great stock. When everybody bought into it, the stock would go up, and then pull the rug out, sell the stock, and those other people would be left with a loss.

Q. After you received John Gotti, Jr.'s approval to go forward with this scam with Sal Romano, I believe you said you actually turned in some of those stock fraud proceeds directly to John Gotti, Jr.?

A. Yes.

Q. Again, did you place them directly into his hands?

A. Yes.

DePalma and Scores Night Club

Greg DePalma

Greg DePalma

Q. Are you familiar with a club named Scores?

A. Yes.

Q. What was Scores?

A. Strip club.

Q. Did that strip club, Scores, have any relationship with the Gambino family?

A. Yes, they were with us.

Q. When you say they were with you, they were with you in what respect?

A. They were accountable to us. They came into us. We earned money out of there.

Q. How much money did you end up earning out of Scores?

A. My bottom line?

Q. Your bottom line?

A. $10,000.

Q. And how about John Gotti, Jr.?

A. I believe it was $80,000.

Q. OK. How did that money make it into John Gotti, Jr.'s hands, to your knowledge?

A. Craig DePalma brought it to him.

Q. Did you say Craig DePalma?

A. Craig, Greg DePalma's son. He had a son named Craig.

Q. Who was Craig DePalma?

A. He was a soldier in John Jr.'s regime.

MR. McGOVERN: Can we pull up, please, 148A through D, which we will move at this time if there is no objection.

MR. CARNESI: No objection.

THE COURT: Received. (Government's Exhibits 148A through D received in evidence)

Q. Starting with 148A, can you tell us who's shown in this photo from left to right?

A. Jackie Cavallo, Craig DePalma, Tommy Sneakers.

Q. OK. When you say Craig DePalma, that's the son of the Greg DePalma we saw earlier?

A. That's correct.

Q. Let's see 148B.

A. Cavallo, DePalma, Cacciopoli.

Q. Again, the relationship of these individuals to John Gotti, Jr.?

A. All in his crew.

Q. And all made men?

A. All made men.

Q. 148C. Same location.

A. That's me.

Q. And 148D?

A. It looks like Craig DePalma.

MR. McGOVERN: Your Honor, at this time I would like to play a very brief audio recording marked as, it is marked as Government's Exhibit 401T. It is an audio recording made by the New York State Attorney General's Organized Crime Task Force. There's a previous stipulation that this may be received in evidence.

THE COURT: All right.

MR. McGOVERN: May we distribute copies to the jury?


MR. McGOVERN: With the same instruction as earlier.

THE COURT: That's a transcript, is that right, Mr. McGovern?

MR. McGOVERN: Yes, your Honor.

THE COURT: The transcript, again, is supposed to be only an aid. The evidence is the actual recording. Do you have one for the Court or no?

MR. McGOVERN: I don't believe so. I think we are in good shape.

THE COURT: You said do you have one more for the Court.

MR. McGOVERN: I'm sorry.


MR. McGOVERN: Yes, I do, your Honor.

THE COURT: Very good. Thanks.

MR. McGOVERN: OK. For the record, we have moved 401T and -- is it 401 that we moved is the CD? (Government's Exhibits 401 and 0401T received in evidence)

MR. McGOVERN: Just for the record, this is a recording made on June 8, 1995, at the residence of Greg DePalma and the participants in the conversation are Greg DePalma and Craig DePalma. (Audio played)

Q. Mr. DiLeonardo, can you give us an overall sense of what Craig DePalma is discussing with his father in this conversation?

A. Yes. There was an individual who was a manager in Scores nightclub who had an agreement with Scores if he built up the gross income of the place he would have a bottom line, a net -- an agreement where he would get, let's say, 10 percent, and they would pay him that much. He got it up to about $14,000, 15,000 a week, the club was doing that much money. So when he's working in there, Craig DePalma and Greg DePalma already put an individual around them, Willie marshal to work in there. Tory Locascio, the place was originally with him, who was around us. Those guys were going to him. All the Bronx was going up there, working in the place, and they were all earning a payout there. At the time Junior knew nothing about what was going on in there. When it comes time to throw the kid out, when the DePalmas see the amount of money being earned from this kid, alone let alone the other money, they see an opportunity to get in there and reap the harvest so to say. This kid, Craig [C], the manager, goes to a friend of mine and John's called Stevie Kaplan, different from the other Stevie Kaplan, who is in the strip club business. He goes to him and he tells him he feels he's getting pushed out of the club and they're looking to take his pay away, meaning the DePalmas and the Sergios, the Bronx faction. He comes to see me with the kid. Later on I go tell John about it, what's going on in there. John knew nothing about what was going on at that time. The DePalmas at this time, when I'm finding out this information, have their own agenda, but I don't post John about it. Now John is mad about it. But the DePalmas don't tell him they already have a plan in place to throw out [Craig C] and take down all this money. They lie to John about this. When I go out there and I confront John with it, he winds up getting angry because I tell him, Listen, Stevie Kaplan told me these guys are trying to move this guy out. He calls Craig DePalma down and Craig and I get into it a little bit, and I called the kid a liar. There was something about contractual stuff. So they try to paint the kid to John as a cokehead, a womanizer, he breached his agreement -- because he had a legitimate agreement with Scores nightclub. So they had to sign off on this. This kid had to sign himself out. He had it legitimately on paper. This kid was actually a legitimate kid, so to speak. So, instead of going to the cops -- you don't go to the cops in that business. You wind up getting hurt. You go to the mob. That's what he did. When Stevie Kaplan told him he knew John Gotti, that's -- he said that [Craig C] was throwing around John Gotti, Jr.'s name. So this is where it all comes to a head. You got me bringing the beef in and the DePalmas trying to hold this from Junior.

Q. What is the end result of all of this?

A. John says it's better off we just take a one-time payment out of the place and forget about it. That is what's done. We asked for $100,000.

Q. Do you, in fact, get that $100,000?

A. Yes.

Q. Who do you get from it? I'm sorry. Not you. Who does the family get it from?

A. Craig DePalma brings it into John, Jr.

Q. And what happens to it then?

A. John distributes it.

Q. And what do you get out of it?

A. $10,000.

Q. I just want to go back to the transcript, because that was a long narrative, and just see if you could walk us through the transcript and explain some of the conversation here. On the very first page, Craig, the son, says, "Do you remember that situation with Mikey Hop to throw that kid Craig out?" Is this the Craig [C] you say that was being thrown out of the Scores night club?

A. That's correct.

Q. OK. And Craig says about six entries down, "He's going to take that kid's place over." What place is that?

A. Scores nightclub.

Q. And Greg says, "Who is?" And Craig DePalma says, "John." Do you understand that reference?

A. Junior.

Q. And Greg DePalma's response is, "How is he going to book the girls?" And Craig, the son, says, "I told you. The kid, Stevie. Remember that Steve Kaplan?" Who was Steve Kaplan to John, Jr. at this time?

A. He's directly with John, Jr. but at the time I am servicing for John.

Q. So two lines down, Craig DePalma says he's around Mikey Scars?

A. That's correct.

Q. Is that a reference to you?

A. Right.

Q. If you took the place over, who were you going to use to book the girls?

A. Well, [Craig C] would stay in that spot and Steve Kaplan was already in the strip club business. He had the Goat Club in Atlanta.

Q. And then, line 37, Craig DePalma says, "John. Put it this way. John's going to do what he wants out of that place. That's the bottom line."

A. Right.

Q. What does that mean?

A. John's telling Greg DePalma and Craig DePalma that he's going to call the shots.

Q. Turning over to the next page, line 21, Greg DePalma says, "So have you seen Mikey Hop at all? You seen Willie?" Who is he referring to there?

A. Yes. Mikey Hop is that associate with the Locascios who was put into Scores. He would go there and collect the extortion money for them. And Willie marshal, Willie is with Craig and Greg DePalma. He's the one who got the bouncing job in Scores.

Q. Then on line 26, Greg DePalma says, "Did you tell John?" And Craig says, "I don't want to do that. So there goes that down the drain." What do you understand that to mean?

A. Well, like I said, if Greg DePalma tells John how much money is coming out of there in the beginning, he feels that John would control it and there would be, he would take out the whole score, or they wouldn't get as much as they think they would get without telling John.

Q. On line 24 Craig says, "He's not gonna -- he's going to give, pay to somebody else, and you know who that is. Mikey Scars." Is that a reference to you?

A. Yes.

Q. And what is Craig DePalma saying there?

A. Well, he knows I had Stevey Kaplan and my relationship with John. He figures that we're going to step in and take over the club.

Q. And then finally at the top of page 3, line 6, Greg says, "He won't get the whole thing to Mikey Scars. He won't get the whole thing to Mikey Scars, not that much. You want to make a bet? What do you want me to bet, because I don't think he knows how much it is." What do you understand that reference to mean?

A. Well, he's trying to say if John knows it's $14,000 or $15,000 plus a week that I wouldn't get the whole bulk of that monies.

Junior Gotti's Real Estate Investments

Q. All right. Let's move on from there. We have covered the construction proceeds, the stock market proceeds, the hundred thousand that you say was taken out of Scores. At any time that you were collecting these moneys and putting them into John Gotti, Jr.'s hands, did he tell you what he was doing with the money, in turn?

John A. Gotti

John A. "Junior" Gotti

A. Yes. He was looking to buy some properties. He wanted to invest in some real estate.

Q. And did he explain to you why he was investing in real estate?

A. Yes. It was a pretty safe investment, real estate. And, two, that is way he could hide all his money; buy a building, commercial shop or something like that, rent it out, collect incomes where you could earn a big salary.

Q. Did there come a time that you actually learned of several properties that John Gotti, Jr. had invested in?

A. Yes.

Q. Before we turn to those, I missed something that I just wanted to cover. And that is government's exhibit 313. While we're on the topic of Gregg DePalma and Scores. Showing you 313 on the screen. Do you recognize that business establishment, Pretty Woman?

A. Yes. That was the DePalma strip club.

Q. Could we see the back side of that. Do you recognize the entry Gregg and the phone number?

A. Yeah, DePalma.

Q. Gregg DePalma?

A. Gregg DePalma, yeah.

Q. Did you ever go to Pretty Woman?

A. Yes.

Q. How many times?

A. Once.

Q. What did you go there for?

A. John, Jr.

Q. For what reason?

A. Congratulate Gregg on opening up that club.

Q. Now, going to the real estate interest that we started to discuss, what particular real estate properties did you learn from John Gotti, Jr. he invested his money in?

A. Property out in Hempstead. He bought a commercial piece there. Building on 101st Avenue, I believe. His Milford home, had a house up in Milford, Pennsylvania.

Q. And sticking with the Milford, Pennsylvania, do you have any idea who he purchased that home for or how he came to own it?

A. Well, that goes back to when, when his father was around. He bought it from Louie Astuto, Louie Fats. Was an acting captain with us. He bought that property from him, the father. Then John assumed it when Senior went away.

Q. Did you ever get directly involved in making payments on the Milford, Pennsylvania property?

A. Yes.

Q. How so?

A. John would give me cash. Louie Fats was from Brooklyn, Staten Island. So when I'd go out and see John, occasionally, he would give me some moneys to give to Louie Fats.

Q. And why was John Gotti, Jr. able to invest cash as opposed to checks in the Milford, Pennsylvania property?

A. Well, Louie is an acting captain with us. So he is never going to say anything about John giving him some money. And you don't have to make an expenditure for a check, where you could use that check somewhere else.

Q. So you actually hand-carried tease payments?

A. Yes.

Q. And what about the Hempstead property. Did you ever assist him in making payments on that property?

A. No.

The Murder of Frank Parasole

Q. Now, did there come a time in early 1997 that you learned about the murder of an individual with local 23?

A. Yes.

Q. And who was that?

A. Frank Parasole he was a foreman.

Q. And he was a foreman with local 23?

A. That's correct.

Q. Who was the first person to tell you that Frank Parasole had been called?

A. Joe D'Angelo.

Q. And when Joe D'Angelo came to see you, what did he tell you?

A. He said the Lenny Decarlo, who was an associate of the family, he was a nephew of Huck Carbonaro, had invited this Frank Parasole to a Super Bowl party where he was beaten and then shot and, in turn, died.

Q. And what was your reaction to this news that a union official had been shot to death?

A. Well, very upset.

Q. Why?

A. We know nothing about anything that was going on. We didn't know there was any problems with this guy, which there was no problems with him. What happened, was Lenny Decarlo was put to work by -- his uncle, had asked for a favor to put this kid to work in the union. And he was told he had to work. We gave him a job, he had to work, stay on the job. Well, I guess Frank Parasole had the audacity to tell him he had to work, several times, because Lenny felt like he didn't have to work, he had a right of entitlement, I guess. And felt he was being embarrassed by Parasole. Lenny invites him down to a club, Super Bowl Sunday. Lenny invites all of his friends. Proceeds, as soon as the guy comes in, to give him a severe beating. That ain't enough, he pulls out a gun and shoots him shoots. Shoots him in his -- in his rear. And the guy bleeds to death and dies.

Q. What did you do with this information that you got from Joey D'Angelo?

A. I brought it up to John.

Q. What was his reaction?

A. He was as upset as I was.

Q. What did you fear was about to happen to you and John Gotti, Jr.?

A. Well, I know we were going to get hit with a lot of heat. The law enforcement was going to think that this was a sanctioned murder of a union guy, and they were trying to figure out where the blame lies. And who was the blame. He was the head of the family, everything runs up hill at that point.

Q. And so did there come a time, however, that others were arrested for the Parasole murder?

A. Yes.

Q. Who?

A. Lenny Decarlo was arrested, and John Furisi.

Q. And, to your knowledge, Decarlo was the shooter?

A. Yes.

Q. And, after they were arrested, did you make any efforts to keep these two individuals quiet and ensure that they wouldn't cooperate with law enforcement?

A. Well, like I said, Lenny was Huck's nephew, so he handed Lenny. And Furisi was a cousin to a marriage to me and Fappiano. He married Fappiano's blood cousin. And also was living in Frankie's partner's house in the construction business. So they had -- he had no money at the time, he counsel afford a lawyer. So I told him, you better help this kid out, get him a lawyer, put some moneys together, and pay this kid's bills, because his wife was over my house, often, complaining there was no money in the house. So I told him make sure you take care of the family. He had a couple of kids.

Q. And did you arrange for those payments?

A. I gave an order to take care of it; yes.

Q. Were you ever, yourself, personally questioned by law enforcement about the Parasole murder?

A. Yes, soon after.

Q. And how did that come about?

A. I went to eat with my first wife. And when I came out, I got in the car, started to drive, I noticed a car behind me. And it was law enforcement. And they pulled me over. It was the state detectives; one being Tommy Dates. And Galetta, he was the other detective. I got out of the car, I knew them from the neighborhood. And some little talk, they says, what happened with Parasole, in that nature and that form. Saying that, you know, that is why they were on me, and they were going to be looking at me for it, which I said I don't know what you're talking about.

Junior Stashes Cash and Weapons

Q. Did there come a time shortly after the Parasole murder that you learned John Gotti, Jr. had been the subject of a law enforcement search?

A. Yes.

Q. Did you discuss that search directly with John Gotti, Jr.?

A. Yes, afterwards.

Q. What did he tell you?

A. He says he got hit in the basement of one of his buildings, and that they had taken some moneys, a Derringer, and some other things out of the basement. And that, later on that night, he had sent some fellows back in to break in and get some things that they might have missed. And they did miss some things, law enforcement, and took that out.

Q. According to John Gotti, Jr. how much money had law enforcement been able to find?

A. Over three-hundred thousand.

Q. And at the time, did he say anything to you about what he was going to claim was the source of that money?

A. Yes. He was going to say that, being it was so much money down there, that he got it at his wedding. He was going to claim that it was his wedding money.

Q. Just to be clear, approximately when was this search executed?

A. Sometime in '97.

Q. And how many years prior to that did John Gotti, Jr. get married?

A. Seven.

Q. Did there come a time later that same year, late '97, that John Gotti, Jr. asked you to hold something for him?

A. Yes.

Q. And approximately when was this discussion?

A. I would say, middle to the end of '97.

Q. And where did this discussion take place.

A. Out in Queens.

John Ruggiero

John Ruggiero

Q. And when you and John Gotti, Jr. got together, was anyone else present?

A. Yes. John Ruggiero, and a couple associates of John, and a associate of mine Tommy Cherubino.

Q. And what did, in that conversation, what did John Gotti, Jr. ask you to hold for him?

A. Submachine guns.

Q. And what did you say to this request that you hold some machine guns for him?

A. Sure.

Q. So what did you agree to do?

A. Be the custodian of them. I agreed to take them, and I took them that night.

Q. How did that come about?

A. I told Tom Cherubino to get the car, go with Johnny Boy Ruggiero and make the transfer.

Q. And did that happen?

A. Yes.

Q. How did you supervise this transfer?

A. That was it. I told Tommy to get the other Ruggiani boy, wherever the guns were, put them in our trunk, and then we left.

Q. And then where did you go?

A. Back to Brooklyn.

Q. And what happens when you and Cherubino got back to Brooklyn?

A. We went to his house on 84 Street, Brooklyn. I went to the corner, looked for the cops. When it was clear, he took the guns out of the trunk, they were in the box, and brought them into his basement.

Junior, DePalmas Arrested for Extortion

Q. Do you recall what happened to John Gotti, Jr. in January of 1988 1998 --

A. Yes. He was arrested.

Q. And was he arrested alone or with others?

A. With others.

Q. Who were some of the others?

A. Craig DePalma, Gregg DePalma, Mikey Huck Sergio, Steve Sergio, Willie Marshall, and several other people. I believe Amagucci was in that case too.

Q. And do you recall the general nature of the charges at that time?

A. It was an extortion. Racketeering case.

Q. Involving what entity?

A. Scores Night Club and construction stuff.

Q. To your knowledge did John Gotti, Jr. apply for bail at that time?

A. Yes.

Q. And was bail granted?

A. No.

Q. Did he subsequently make bail?

A. Yes.

Q. So, between the time -- do you remember approximately when it was in '98 that he made bail?

A. I would say about eight months later; six, eight months, somewhere around there.

Q. During that initial eight-month period from early '98 until, you know, late summer of '98, did you continue to communicate with him while he was detained?

A. Yes.

Q. How so?

A. Through Michael McLaughlin, Johnny Ruggiero.

Q. Michael McLaughlin is the same associate we have be talking about shown in the photo behind Bobby Boriello's casket?

A. Yes.

Q. And you said Johnny Boy Ruggerio, as well?

A. Yes.

Q. Who was he?

A. Associate of John's.

Q. And approximately how many messages were brought to you from John Gotti, Jr., through Johnny Boy Ruggiero and Michael McLaughlin while John Gotti, Jr. was still detained in 1998?

A. Oh, there were several.

Q. And do you recall who brought you the first message?

A. I believe it was Johnny Boy and Michael together.

Q. And when, approximately, was this?

A. I would say around March.

Q. What year?

A. Ninety-eight.

Q. And how do you pinpoint that in time?

A. It was just before I moved in my house.

Q. And this is your house in Staten Island that you moved into in March of '98.

A. I believe '98.

Q. '98, sorry. Where did you meet with McLaughlin and Ruggiero?

A. Staten Island.

Q. And according to McLaughlin and Ruggiero, how were they communicating with John Gotti, Jr.?

A. They could see him.

Q. See him where?

A. In prison.

Q. And do you remember where Gotti, Jr. was being detained in at that time?

A. Valhalla.

Q. Where is Valhalla?

A. White Plains.

Q. What was the first message from John Gotti, Jr. that you received in 1998, around March.

A. Yes, he said that I was -- tell Michael he was right about everything.

Q. What did you take that to mean?

A. The DePalmas, and him getting involved with them so deep.

DiLeonardo Fears Arrest in Scores Case

Q. Did there come a time you received another message from Ruggiero and McLaughlin, carrying a message from John Gotti, Jr.?

A. Yeah, sometime after I moved into my house in Staten Island I, once again, met them in Staten Island and he told me that I may get pinched in his case.

Michael DiLeonardo

"Mikey Scars" DiLeonardo

Q. And what did you take that to mean?

A. Well, I might get arrested.

Q. And what was your reaction to the news from John Gotti, Jr. that you might get arrested in his case?

A. Well, the first thing I did, was go home and clean out my house.

Q. What did you clean out?

A. My money, my jewelry, whatever I had hanging around.

Q. Well, did you think that you had -- there was a basis to arrest you in that case involving Scores?

A. Yes.

Q. And in addition to cleaning out your house, did you seek advice of counsel at that time?

A. Yes. I -- I went to see a lawyer named Nick Gravante.

Q. And did you request any assistance in particular from Nick Gravante?

A. Yes. When I -- when I heard about -

Q. Without -- without going into the conversations, what assistance were you looking for from Nick Gravante?

A. Legal counsel. And, tell White Plains that if they needed me, I'm not running away, I'm here. If they're going to arrest me in the case, I'd like to self-surrender, if it is possible, so they don't have to come to my house at six in the morning, take me out.

Q. When you say tell White Plains, who were you referring to?

A. I believe it was Carol Cipoli up there was handling the case.

Q. Up where?

A. White Plains.

Q. What does she do for a living in White Plains?

A. U.S. Attorney.

Q. Federal prosecutor?

A. Federal prosecutor.

Q. You say you asked Gravante to make contact with this Carol Cipoli?

A. Correct.

Q. I show you what has been marked for identification as government's exhibit it 3519-128. Two documents there. Can you look at them and tell us whether you recognize them?

A. Yes.

Q. What do you recognize the cover page to be?

A. This is a stipulation.

Q. On the first page.

A. Yes, it is a faxed -- AUSA Carol Cipoli, from my attorney, and me.

Q. Okay. And what is attached to the letter?

A. It is a stipulation, asking for some draft transcripts or materials pertaining to me in the Scores case.

Q. Okay. And draft transcripts of what?

A. Oh, all of the Scores material. There was a lot of tapes. There was about seven thousand hours of tapes.

Q. Similar to the tape we just listened to?

A. Yes. That was one of them.

Q. Did you sign that stipulation?

A. Yes, I did.

MR. McGOVERN: Your Honor, we move 3519-128.

MR. CARNESI: No objection.

THE COURT: Received. (Government's Exhibit 3519-128 received in evidence)

Q. Mr. DiLeonardo, what is the date on that letter from your lawyer to Carol Cipoli?

A. October 23rd, '98.

Q. Now, I believe you said that there, sometime in the late summer of 1998, you learned that John Gotti, Jr. had gotten out on bail?

A. Right.

Q. Did you continue to communicate with him through his emissaries even while he was out on bail?

A. Yes.

Q. And what people came to see you?

A. Johnny and/or Michael.

Q. And what messages do you recall receiving from John Gotti, Jr. in late '98 early '99?

A. That I was right about everything and everybody.

Q. And what did you take that to mean?

A. Same message, saying that I was right, that I advised them earlier to stay away from the DePalmas, to be careful, they were lying about this whole Scores things. And he was having some difficulties dealing with that. Willie Marshal had flipped, Sergios had flipped. So he started to see what reality was at that point.

Q. In addition to sending these messages to you, was John Gotti, Jr. providing you any other assistance to help you prepare for the possibility that you might get arrested?

A. Yes. I received some material; videotape and some other materials.

Q. What kind of materials were those?

A. Some paperwork, transcripts.

Q. And what was your understanding as to how John Gotti, Jr. had come by these tapes and transcripts?

A. It was part of the discovery.

Q. And once you started to receive these discovery materials from Gotti, Jr. what did you do with them?

A. I brought them up to my lawyer.

Q. Who was representing you at that time?

A. Gravante.

Q. And did there come a time that you sought the advice of another lawyer?

A. We went to see [L.B.], because he was in the case representing Tony Locascio. And he also gave us some material.

Q. He was not acting as your lawyer?

A. No.

Q. When you say "we" went to see [L.B.], who is we?

A. I had taken Steve Kaplan with me.

Q. And who is Steve Kaplan?

A. He is the one who had the Gold Club, an associate of John and myself.

Q. Okay. Different from the other Steve Kaplan, who is the life-long friend of John Gotti, Jr. and also an associate in his crew?

A. That's correct.

Q. I would like to offer 149 A through D at this time, if there is no objection?

MR. CARNESI: No objection.

THE COURT: 149 A through D is received. (Government's Exhibits 149 A through D received in evidence)

Q. Pull those up on the screen.

MR. McGOVERN: Actually, there is a stipulation, your Honor, between the parties that these photos were taken in the vicinity of Times Square in Manhattan on September 15, 1999.

Q. Mr. DiLeonardo, who do you recognize in that photo, from left to right?

A. That's me on the crutches, Steve Kaplan, [L.B.]. He is an attorney, [L.B.].

Q. And I see you're walking with crutches. Can you explain what happened there?

A. I broke my leg in a construction site.

Q. And approximately do you remember when it was that you broke your leg?

A. Labor Day weekend.

Q. Of what year?

A. Of -- 2000.

Q. 2000?

A. No, '99. Excuse me.

Q. Okay. And, again, let's go to the next photo, 149 B, moving from left to right.

A. That is me.

Q. Moving right to left?

A. Oh, sorry. [L.B.] the attorney, Kaplan, and myself.

Q. Again, remind us what's the purpose of you meeting with [L.B.] at this time?

A. That was to discuss Steve was also mentioned that he may get pinched, so we were trying to get together and see what we were going to do.

Q. 149 C.

A. That is me right there.

Q. In the middle?

A. Right.

Q. Facing the camer

A. And 149 D.

A. Kaplan, and me.

Q. Now, after this meeting among you, Kaplan, and [L.B.], did there -- did you receive another message from John Gotti, Jr. about your continuing to meet with Steve Kaplan?

A. Yes. He had said for me not to meet him anymore.

Q. Who brought you that message?

A. Robert Scarpachi.

Q. Who is Robert Scarpachi?

A. Wait a minute. No, Robert -- there was a message before that from Robert Scarpachi.

Q. Okay. We'll come back to the earlier message. Who brought you the message about Steve Kaplan?

A. Michael McLaughlin.

Q. And when Mike McLaughlin brought you this message, what did he say?

A. He said that John is going to do some things with Steve, to stay away from him.

Q. Okay. And you said there was an earlier message that you received from a Scarpachi?

A. Right.

Q. And who was he?

A. He was an associate of Jackie Nose.

Q. And did you have an understanding at that time as to how Scarpachi claimed to be meeting directly with John Gotti, Jr.?

A. Yes, he was helping him defend his case.

Q. Well, how, in particular -- or where was he meeting with John Gotti, Jr.?

A. Up in the lawyer's office. He was listening to tapes and reading transcripts.

Q. And this Scarpachi was an associate of Jackie D'Amico's group?

A. Right.

Q. Where did you meet with Scarpachi?

A. In Brooklyn, by his home.

Q. And what message did he bring you?

A. He wanted to know, John wanted to know, how come I let Tony Morelli sit down for a Stevie Kaplan in Florida. Stevie had some clubs in Florida. And he was telling me John was annoyed that I had another skipper, even though he was in our family, represent Stevie down there.

Q. And the approximate time frame of this conversation?

A. Probably around the same time. First, that was the first conversation.

Q. This is what point in '99?

A. I would say pretty late '99.

Q. Okay. Sometime around the same time as these photos, September of '99?

A. Correct.

Q. And what was your response to Scarpachi?

A. I was upset with Robert, and upset that John had sent this kid to give me a message like that. He's only an associate, didn't have such a good representation in my neighborhood, and I'm the captain.

Q. And then you subsequently got this message from McLaughlin to stay away from Steve Kaplan?

A. Right.

Junior Does Time in Raybrook

Ray Brook Prison

Ray Brook

Q. Do you recall how Gotti, Jr. ended up resolving his case in White Plains, that federal case involving Scores?

A. Yes. He plead out.

Q. And do you recall approximately when it was that he went to prison to serve his sentence?

A. I believe it was later in '99.

Q. And do you recall where it was that he served that sentence?

A. Yes in Raybrook Prison, up state.

Q. Upstate, New York?

A. Right.

Q. Did you continue to communicate with John Gotti, Jr., even after he surrendered to serve a prison sentence at Raybrook Prison in upstate New York?

A. Yes.

Q. And when was the first time that you received a message from him?

A. His brother, Peter, came to see me and he said that John wanted us to meet like once a week.

Q. And what is the approximate time frame here?

A. Early 2000, I would say.

Q. And this -- in early 2000, his brother Peter is John Gotti, Jr.'s younger brother Peter?

A. Yes. Of course, after the last message with the Scarpachi incident, I told Scarpachi that -- and I told Pete Gotti I am not taking messages from anybody but a Gotti, that is why I got to see Peter.

Q. Okay. When Peter Gotti, the younger brother of the defendant here, came to see you in early 2000, what's did he say to you?

A. He said John wanted us to stay close, and to have communication, and to meet, hopefully, once a week so, even if we talked about nothing, because the kid was outside our family, he was not involved in anything at that time. And just to stay in communication with me.

Q. Did there come a time that Peter Gotti, the brother, brought you a message from John Gotti, Jr.

A. Yes.

Q. And after that initial one, did Peter Gotti explain how he knew his brother's wishes?

A. John told him.

Q. So was he meeting with him at Raybrook Prison, to your knowledge?

A. Yes, I believe so.

Money from Gravano's Shylock Racket

Q. What was the specific request that Peter Gotti brought to you from his older brother, John Gotti, Jr.?

A. Yes, I was holding some moneys from Sammy Gravano's shylock book, about 185,000 and he wanted some moneys back.

Q. Do you remember the approximate, or as close as you can the words that Peter Gotti used, when he brought you that message?

A. Yes. He said John would like to have some money back if you could do something. And I said I would put something together.

Q. Did he say what money he was referring to?

A. Yes. The Gravano money, Sammy's money.

Q. And you said that when you heard that, you understood it to be money from Sammy Gravano's loansharking book?

A. Yes.

Salvatore Gravano

Salvatore Gravano

Q. Tell us how you came to be involved with Sammy Gravano's loansharking book in the first place?

A. Well, after Sammy flipped, he left like two or three million dollars in the street. And John seen it and sent an order out for that book to be collected and bring it into the family. John had appointed me to oversee Huck Carbonaro who ran Sammy Gravano's shylock book at the time when Sammy was on the street, and try to collect these moneys and bring them in. And I was given a salary, and so was Huck, every week, for doing that.

Q. So at what point in time did you assume supervision over Sammy's Gravano's loansharking business?

A. Right after Sammy flipped, pretty shortly after that.

Q. So, 1992?

A. Ninety-three, sometime.

Q. So, when -- when Peter Gotti came to you in early 2000 with this request that you return to John Gotti, Jr. some of those loansharking proceeds, did you actually, were you actually holding any for him?

A. Yes, I was holding 185,000, less about fifty thousand that he had taken out to buy some jewelry and other stuff -- gold.

Q. How did it come to pass that you were actually holding the $185,000 in loansharking proceeds?

A. Well, at that time, John had nowhere to put any more of the cash. And he was giving cash, large sums, to different guys around him to -- custodian, be custodians on it.

Q. And I just want to be clear. When we're talking about John, now, which John are we referring to?

A. John, Jr.

Q. And, prior to that time when he said to you to hold the money for him, were you actually turning in those loansharking proceeds?

A. Yes.

Q. How often?

A. Every week, or whenever I got it.

Q. And you were turning them in; to whom?

A. John, Jr.

Q. Now, you say at some point the time in the 1990s he asked you to stop turning it in and actually hold on to it?

A. Right.

Q. Approximately when was that?

A. That was right, short -- around the same year, it could have been, '92 into '93.

Q. And what's specific directions did he give you about what you should do with that $185,000 that you were holding in loansharking proceeds?

A. He says hold it for him. When he wants it, he'll call for it. But if I needed to use it to earn a living or to juggle, he says write a slip, put it in, and use whatever you want.

Q. So, fast forwarding now to 2000 when you received this request from John Gotti, Jr.'s younger brother for some of that Gravano money, give us your best idea of when this conversation occurs?

A. I would say April of 2000.

Q. And how do you pinpoint that in time?

A. Madeline was pregnant at that time.

Q. And was Madeline there?

A. She was not at the meeting. She was waiting in the car. We were going to dinner.

Q. And how pregnant was Madeline at the time?

A. She gave birth in July, so pretty pregnant.

Q. Okay. And when Peter Gotti brought you this message that John Jr. wanted some of the money from the Gravano loansharking book, what's was your response?

A. I said, sure, I'll put something together.

Q. And did you?

A. Yes, I did.

Q. And what did you do?

A. I got 50,000. I found Louie Mariani. I told him to find Johnny Ruggiero, tell Peter to come with him at a designated spot in Brooklyn, and we made an appointment.

Q. And what happened at that appointment?

A. Peter showed up with Ruggiero. And I gave Louie the money, to transfer to Ruggiero, while I stood outside and talked to Peter while they went in the car and they counted it and made sure everything was right.

Q. So you and Peter Gotti stood outside while Louis Mariani and Johnny Boy Ruggiero made the transfer?

A. That's correct.

Q. Why did you direct your associate, Louis Mariani to deal directly with Johnny Boy Ruggiero?

A. Because it wasn't the right place for me to start counting money with Peter. It wasn't -- it wasn't just the right thing to do.

Q. And was Johnny Boy Ruggiero's relationship to John Gotti, Jr. at that point in time?

A. Oh, we were going to straighten Johnny Boy out. He was proposed.

Q. But was he a member or not of John Gotti Jr.'s crew?

A. Oh, yeah, he was an associate. Sure.

Q. And how about Louis Mariani, you say he was your associate. Was he also an individual with whom the Gottis associated?

A. Yes. He was also going to get straightened out. I proposed him.

Q. I would like to pull up on the screen government's exhibits 137 -- I believe A through H -- actually, A, D, E, and G.

MR. McGOVERN: There is actually a stipulation, your Honor, that these are surveillance photos taken in the vicinity of Cross Bay Boulevard and Van Brunt Road in Broad Channel, New York on May 16, 2000.

Q. Mr. DiLeonardo, looking at 137 A, can you tell us whether you recognize anyone in that photo?

A. That is Louie Mariani and that is me.

Q. How about 137 D.

A. That is me, Louie, and Pete Gotti.

Q. And at this point in time, May 16, 2000, what is Peter Gotti's rank in the Gambino family?

A. He is active boss.

Q. And let's turn to 137 E. And, again, from left to right.

A. That is me, Louie, Peter Gotti.

Q. Is this the same Louis Mariani that you used to make the transfer of loansharking proceeds to Peter Gotti around April of 2000?

A. Yes.

Q. Peter Gotti, I'm sorry.

A. Yes.

Q. And 137 G.

A. Pete, looks like Louis, and Peter.

Q. Now, I want to show you a couple of more photos which are in evidence, 138 A, E, and EE.

MR. McGOVERN: And there is a stipulation that these were taken at the same location, on June 12, 2000.

THE COURT: And that's where we'll end it.

MR. McGOVERN: Yes, Judge.

THE COURT: All right.

MR. McGOVERN: Very well.

THE WITNESS: I can't make that out.

Q. Okay. Let's -- let's try another one. Let's go to E.

A. Okay. I could see Pete.

Q. Okay. How about on the left-hand side of the photo.

A. Yeah, that is me.

Q. And how often were you meeting with Peter Gotti during the time frame June of 2000?

Peter Gotti

Peter Gotti

MR. CARNESI: Judge, can we specify, since there are two Peter Gottis --

THE COURT: Fair enough.

MR. CARNESI: -- which one we are talking about.

Q. This is the Peter Gotti, the acting boss, and the uncle of the defendant?

A. That's correct.

Q. Okay. And, finally, 138 EE?

A. That is me, and Pete again.

THE COURT: All right.

MR. McGOVERN: All right.

THE COURT: Done, Mr. McGovern? We'll leave it there.

MR. McGOVERN: Thank you, your Honor.

THE COURT: We'll leave it there. All right, good. Ladies and gentlemen, we're going to stop for today. Please don't discuss the case with each other or with anyone else. Please try hard to avoid reading any news articles or radio or TV, and see you the same time tomorrow. Thank you. The jury is excused.

(Jury Excused)

(Adjourned until Thursday, February 24, 2006 at 10:00 a.m.)

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